$15 billion is my estimate when the dust settles depending on when they sell the general motors stock. >> so $10 to $15 billion. let's get the columns right here. so $10 to $15 billion on the $82 billion loan directly. >> correct. >> but then, of course, being the numbers guy that you are, there are other columns about the people that stayed in the jobs, that paid taxes to the locals, to the state, to the federal government that didn't go on unemployment, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. those numbers probably add up over time to $15 billion, do they not? >> a lot more. and you gave my response for me. but the fact is it's been studied. it would have been something like 1.4 million jobs lost across the midwest if the car companies had gone. it's not just the car companies. it's the suppliers. ford would have had to shut down. they wouldn't have been able to get parts. all the local service providers, whether it's the bar around the corner, messenger service, they all would have had the business affected.